Mixed Up With Me

Sallie (00:17)
Hello and welcome to Twin Study After Dark. I’m your host Sallie. And I’m your other host Katie. Alright everybody, it is sweet, sweet summertime and I’m just thinking of all the big questions. How’s your week going, Katie? I don’t think it’s going well, but honestly, you know what, it is what it is. It’s a rough week.

and I hope it gets better. I’m sorry. Well, I’m glad that you’re kind of in a mood because I want your blunt honesty for this debate today. I think we’re lucky that we’re the type of people that do laugh at inconvenience and terribleness, you know? So at least Sallie and I have always been able to laugh at bad situations. Yes, we usually laugh at the… I’m not going to dive too far into it, but I am putting a disclaimer out there. I am in a mood today.

because of some other things. She’s going to be a little bit. And so if you want blunt honesty, you might be in in all of it today. Great. I think that’s a good space to be in. Okay. So my debate today was one that I’ve been thinking about because I’ve been thinking a lot about if people can change or not. And we’ll kind of get into that in a little bit, but my debatable topic was kind of romantic relationship recover after infidelity.

Mm -hmm, and I I just want to say that without doing any discussing My we’ve never talked about that instinct. I know I’ve never talked about this together, which is interesting. Yeah But before we even debate my gut instinct would be I don’t think a relationship can survive after infidelity But like as we talk through it, I do think that my mind can sway. I’m interested to know your thoughts. Yeah

I, so I automatically go to people I know that have had infidelity impact their relationship and they have since stayed together and worked through it with therapy. So I’ve heard friends of mine have had, I mean, you have to go to therapy. You have to absolutely talk it through and get to a place of understanding and acceptance of like, we can’t go back in time. This happened and now we need to drop it and move forward together. But.

That process seems so, so heart wrenching. I, in my past relationship, we had dealt with some things that were questionable and I at that time believed I could, I would forgive my partner no matter what. Like I remember saying, I mean, I really gave my whole heart to my ex -husband. I really did. And when,

we would struggle with things. I remember saying, I think I would be willing to try to work through anything. Like, you know, so, so I remember at that time being like, even if he cheated on me, I would work through it because I just really loved him. But now that I’m out of that unhealthy relationship, I can look at that and be like, you didn’t love yourself enough.

Okay. Yeah. So again, I don’t know. Okay. So first of all, I guess we should define kind of what is, what would you consider cheating? Yeah. What you consider cheating. Like do you consider cheating, like texting other girls, like hanging out with other girls, having sex, like sexual relationships with others? Like what is cheating in your eyes? I think that realistically, if you’re in a marriage,

or in a serious relationship, your partner should not be confiding in somebody that they could potentially be attracted to or have a relationship with romantically. I was gonna say the opposite sex, but it’s really anybody to me. Like you should be their go -to person. And if they’re reaching out to somebody, confiding in them, I know that’s not necessarily physically cheating. I do feel like that’s your…

playing with fire. I think that I don’t like the idea of anything. Once it hits a physical point, even if it’s just hand -holding, to me, that’s cheating. Yeah. I think that they talk about emotional cheating versus physical cheating. And honestly, and I’ve heard people say this before, but to me, emotional cheating is almost even worse. And don’t they say women typically

cheat emotionally? Probably because they’re searching for someone to understand them. You know, like if you’re feeling not seen or appreciated, you’re going to go to someone who’s giving you that attention emotionally. And if you think about how people, how people feel love, I always tell this to Adam, like if like we haven’t had sex in a while, I’m like, honestly, I just need to connect with you. Like I just need to have a good conversation with you. Like that’s what women need to get in the mood. Men are opposite. Like they need sex.

to feel close to you and then they’ll confide in you. And I think that with cheating, women would go to the emotional route because that’s what they yearn for. They yearn for the connection of like stimulation of the mind. They really do. And it makes sense that men go towards the physical route because that’s what they need. And I remember when I was dating somebody back a couple years, well, a while ago, and we weren’t having a lot of sex. And I remember talking to a coworker about it. And she’s like, if…

He’s not getting it from you, he’s getting it from someone else. And I, at the time, was like, I guess you’re right. But I also think that that’s really fucked up. I think that… Like, you shouldn’t feel like just because… Yeah. You’re not having sex, it’s like okay, basically, for your partner to get it somewhere else. Like, you’re doing something wrong, because I think that that’s something you both need to work on together. You don’t need to go to an outside source. Yeah, and I don’t like the idea of like, sex being this obligation that you’re…

partner needs, although like you shouldn’t feel guilty about it. If somebody’s not in the mood to be intimate, there’s a larger conversation that has to happen. It’s not about, I don’t think it’s really ever about the sexual attraction. I think there’s something else going on and honestly, I… Well yeah, that’s what I mean. I think girls need like more stimulation, like just, you know, emotional comfort. Yeah.

But yeah, for me, I really don’t think I could get over it, but it has a lot to do with my partner right now, like my marriage. Adam is so, you know, thought through on everything. Honestly, he doesn’t, I mean, he waited like a whole year to even jump in with me type thing. You know, he’s very like thorough about who he’s going for. So like, if he had sex with somebody else, I’d be like, this had to have been something he really thought through. Like, you know what I mean? Cause that’s his brain.

I think there’s a difference to once you have children and a family together because when I was with my past partner, we didn’t have a child yet. And I just think there’s a line drawn once you decide to have a family together, then it’s like you’re not only disrespecting me, the mother of your child, but you are disrespecting our entire family. Yeah.

So that is like a zero tolerance thing for me. But I do know people again that have worked through it in therapy. I don’t know. I think that that would be the only way you could. That would be the only way you could because like again a conversation would be like can people change and I really think people only change if they want to and I think that means that they’re willing to go to therapy to find out what this reason was and they can move together through it. Yeah. But…

I honestly, like I was asking Adam this beforehand, because we were talking about topics for the podcast and he’s like, I don’t think I could ever get over it. And I truly don’t think I could either. If we had therapy, I think that we probably could, like we have a beautiful family and I can imagine if we went through therapy together, we both want it to work out. Do you know what I mean? Like neither of us are not wanting it to work out. Yeah. But if you’re cheating because you’re not getting.

X, Y, and Z in your relationship, sometimes I think cheating is just kind of, I don’t know, the representation of something that’s already fallen apart. It’s like a symptom. It’s not the actual problem. The relationship might be already over if you’ve resulted in cheating. Do you know what I mean? I just think that the respect factor wasn’t there because when, again, when I’ve had experience in the past where my partner was reaching out to other women,

That to me is just like, they just don’t respect you. And you need to know what you deserve and be in a position to honor yourself and leave if they’re doing that. Because that’s just the basis of like, if you’re giving yourself to somebody and you’re entrusting them to like care for your heart and they do that.

then you need to know you deserve better and get out of that. Yeah, I know. I guess like I don’t think that there’s much to discuss here because I think we’re on the same page. Like I really am a firm believer of like I don’t think I could get over it. Honestly, even if it was like texting for support, I don’t think I could get over it. I almost it’s different because we’re married now and we have families. Well, okay, you’re not married. I’m sorry. But we’ve been married and we have families. But like when we were young,

I did cheat on boyfriends. Do you know what I mean? Did you? I never knew that. Yeah. One in particular. And he cheated too. Okay. We both did. Interesting. Yeah. I’m learning some stuff. And we stayed together, but like I feel like because like I did or he did, the other one felt like, okay, doing it too. It was like, excused it. Yeah. And I just looked back at that and I’m like, that should have been…

one of the many red flags that like we did not love each other because the minute like I got together with Adam, I feel like I was just like, once I fell in love with him, I was like, I could never do it to him. Do you know what I mean? Like, right. Like they don’t deserve that. Exactly. Because it’s like so hurtful. That’s why I’m saying you have to have a, you have to have like pent up resentment or a lack of respect to, to do that for that person. I believe.

And I, but I do think the couples that have worked through it, that’s really fucking strong. That’s really amazing. And that is, I’d be curious to hear their story because I know that when I was married, like I said, I would have tried to work through anything, but I personally don’t think it was healthy looking back on what I was willing to accept or put up with. And honestly, the only way he was ever going to change.

was if I broke up with him. How do you feel when people are like, because I’ve heard men say like, I’m a sex addict, that’s why I cheated. And like women giving their husband grace because of that. I don’t, I don’t know if I can speak on that because I don’t know a lot about that addiction. Yeah. But I don’t, I do think that I would have a lot more understanding if my partner was claiming to have such a, such an issue and seeking help for it.

I think I’d give, I mean, honestly, I don’t think I’d be with someone who is struggling with that because I’m pretty black and white about things. But when it comes to health and addiction, I am black and white. It’s just, that’s how our family, like we’ve gone through things that I’m just black and white in some things. But, I do give people grace, I guess, when they’re, they are seeking help. Like if they’re seeking help and they’re getting therapy, I mean that.

unconditional love is supposed to love people through those things, right? So I definitely like but acknowledge it but at the same time if it’s hurting you so bad and they’re not there I don’t think you owe it to stay with them truly because they need to fix themselves kind of before like they really you know what I mean? Well in there you don’t need to. Yeah I don’t think that you should anybody should condone a behavior if the other person is not getting help.

And I’m talking professional help, not like the advice from their friends or family. They need to get hired professional help and be working towards a solution if they in fact really want to be in that relationship. And they should not be putting it on you to be like, well, you need to go to therapy because you can’t handle this about me. No, they should not be doing that either. It’s their issue and they should be the one seeking the help and trying to change if they really, really truly want to be with you. Yeah. I guess I would always think too if…

like my husband was cheating on me, I’d think like, and he was coming to me and saying, I want to stick together, I want to stay together. I’d be like, why? Like tell me, what do you want from me then? Like, you know what I mean? Like why do you want to stay together? Because clearly you don’t love me. Like that’s what it feels like. Do you know what I mean? Cause love doesn’t look like that. So I would just kind of question like, so what, what are you getting from this then? And like,

Honestly, if at that point he threw the kids in the mix, I’d be like, you threw the kids and I out the window the minute you decided to cheat. So don’t tell me it’s the kids. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, right. Let’s take a note from Hamilton. Yeah. She is like, I mean, they stayed together. I know. But the kid, she goes, she’s like, it’s the kids are the greatest. How does that go? I don’t know. You know what I mean? Use that. God. That’s your legacy. It’s your legacy. The kids were your legacy.

You’re not the legacy that your kids are. But okay, so we’re both kind of in agreement with that. Yeah. Do you think that people can change?

People, so I’ve shifted my opinion about this as well. I used to say people cannot change. Because I have tried to encourage change in people in the past, in like a healthy change. Like I want you to be healthy, I want you to love yourself. And there was nothing I could have done and I spent way too much time trying to help them. So.

Ultimately now I think people can change but they need to want to change for themselves. Okay. They’re not going to be able to change for somebody else. Yeah. I think like I admitted like I had cheated on a boyfriend in the past. Yeah. And I remember the same like once a cheater always a cheater. And that like kind of haunted me. Yeah.

So obviously I have to say that I think people can change. But if you had stayed in that relationship, do you think you would have cheated again? I think that like, are you going to stay the same in the same relationship? You know, I don’t know. Yeah. I know that he was quite often. Do you know what I mean? So no matter what, it was headed for disaster. Yeah. But I have to say, I do think that people can change again. I think.

I think though it’s like a choice you make and like a lot of growing up has to happen, a lot of self -reflection has to happen. You know, I think it really takes a lot of work for people to change and to your core, I don’t know necessarily how far people can change. Do you know what I mean? I do believe that it’s a dangerous line when…

somebody in a relationship or you and your significant other create a pattern. And that’s why it’s really hard for me to condone any unhealthy behavior I see in my present relationships because I think once you create a pattern of treating each other a certain way or that…

Is so difficult to change to break because it’s so difficult to break. Yeah, exactly So it’s like and that’s a good point when you said do you think it would have changed in the relationship and like yeah I don’t know if it could have I was the pattern had been made that was the relationship. It was high highs low lows. Yeah, and Like it taught me stuff, but it also like I don’t yeah that what that sounds like so much more work for that relationship I don’t think that was the point of that relationship in my life. Mm -hmm and I

But I do think people can change. I think that…

to an extent though, but also like to the extent of you need to see the work put in. I give a lot of people credit for the work they put in because you know, we have friends and even us that you can see from 10 years ago, like how much they’ve tried to really, you know, uncover their shadow side and really come to face some demons. And I really give people credit for that. And I see change in people. I understand that, but I also believe in the quote,

That Oprah said that when somebody shows you who they are believe them true because I think you give somebody One opportunity to change that that’s funny coming from you because I feel like you’re very lenient with what you I know so this Like I said guy, I’m gonna be I’m gonna be unhinged in this episode. I When I was growing up, I did not forgive easily I was very black and white and I did not forgive easily and there was a point where I

My mom said to me, I cannot believe I raised you to be this way. Like this, she, she hated this part of me that I could not forgive easily. Since she told me that as a child, I have forgiven every fucking person in my entire life. And over and over and over to the point of self -destruction. So I do think now there are people that can change. I’m willing to give grace in that.

But if you ask them to behave in a healthier way one time and they say they’re gonna get help and they do not do that, they do not change or they repeat a pattern that is unhealthy or abusive, leave that person. Yeah, I think you made a good point though, because I remember that too. Like we were raised and I think a lot of people who are raised in…

certain religions are raised to like always forgive. And I think that that is a beautiful sentiment, but I don’t think it’s always the healthiest sentiment. And I also think that forgiveness doesn’t come with having a relationship. Like it doesn’t need to correlate. Like I have forgiven people in my past, really come to a place where I’m like, you know, that’s just them. We’re on different paths. We’re going to go both ways.

but I’m not gonna put them back in my life. Right, and you have to protect yourself. I think there’s a difference and I think some people have trouble understanding that difference. Like where they’re like, well, if you forgave them, then you should be able to talk and have a relationship. And it’s like, no, I forgave them because that’s the piece I needed. But, and I hope they forgive me or whatever for whatever, but that forgiveness is for yourself to move on. I don’t think it’s necessary to keep.

unhealthy relationships going just to prove that what like you’re a good person no I protect your positivity protect your self -worth and I think early on I learned that forgiveness is important but honestly people that love you aren’t gonna need to be forgiven over and over again well and I do know if you

It’s interesting because I remember Taylor Swift saying a quote like you don’t have to forgive to move on you can move on without forgiving. Yeah. And I agree with what you said. Forgiveness is for yourself because I don’t want to carry that negativity with me. Like I want to let it go and move on and I do not want to talk about it ever again. I don’t want to associate with that person sometimes but like no ill will.

Like I don’t want negative for them. I just need to let it go for my own health and sanity. But I don’t think you should feel obligated to forgive though. Like if you really feel upset, I do think that forgiveness is something that we have ingrained in us because of our, we were raised Christian and I think that was ingrained in that religion.

But I don’t think it’s necessary either. I don’t think you should feel guilty. I don’t think you should feel bad about yourself. I don’t think you should, you’re not a bad person if you can’t forgive somebody. Like it is what it is. I think that’s why you in particular, and I think I have a degree of this where you, where you always felt like mean or a bad person, but like truly, I really think life is about like, you need to learn your self -worth. I mean, that’s so important. And if you’re constantly forgiving people,

that you know are doing things that’s hurting you. That’s not loving yourself. So I honestly feel like your self -worth needs to come first and I do believe people can change but I don’t believe they always deserve a spot in your life again. You know what I mean? Like I’m so happy if someone that hurt me has changed. Like good for you. I wish you the best and I’m changing too. You know but like we don’t need to be back in each other’s lives again.

Yeah. And I think that’s a healthy place to be. I truly do. Because you don’t want somebody around who’s constantly making you feel down. Yeah. And like, I just, I really want to instill in my children the lesson of their self -worth and what they deserve. Like if someone’s constantly making you feel like crap, you don’t need to forgive them. You don’t need to hang out with them because we were taught the opposite. Like, forgive them. Give them another try. Hang out with them.

And it’s like, yeah, to the outside world, that looks really great, but internally you’re dying. I just wonder too, like in the relationship building phase of dating somebody, like how often do you like look at something as like, okay, this is an opportunity to help teach them verse like just saying, okay, this is too much. I’m not going to do this anymore.

That’s hard. Like, because I know I feel like from a partner, like from my standpoint, I’ve had partners that are like, well, I would want to talk through it and know how I can be better. And then I’m in the position where I’m like, I don’t want to have to teach you. I want I know how I want to be treated. And I don’t want to have to tell you like, this is how I expect to be treated. I want to just be treated that way. And maybe that’s like a tall order. But but I just feel like at our age to have to.

educate somebody else on how to treat you feels like really annoying to me. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think that there’s a scale of what the incident was and also kind of like there’s a difference between getting to know each other and what your likes and dislikes are and how you communicate, you know, working around that. And then there’s obviously the scale of like really big red flags where if you see it like,

Like Oprah said, they showed you who they are. You know type thing like some red flags are just like kind of personality traits that aren’t gonna change. Well do you think, so like we talked about prior to this episode, we were talking about like men having a say in like what you’re wearing or trying to control what you wear. Or like we were talking about like how often they expect you to text them. Like if you’re not texting them enough and then they get upset or annoyed by you. Like are these to me, I’m like that’s…

is a red flag, like you need to adjust your expectation and know like, I’m not going to change. Like this is who I am. And, but like, is it my responsibility or the person’s responsibility to teach that person? Or do you just like the moment they start doing that, you’re like, no, this isn’t my work. I’m done. I think it’s honestly, you’re a pin. It’s like at your discretion, but I think that.

once it starts happening, you should have like your radar radar up. You know what I mean? Because then if it happens again, like I’d almost even like maybe like note it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like you don’t want to like you want to give them the advice like, Hey, I don’t like that. You’re always saying I don’t text enough. Like this is as much as I can like kind of handle at this moment. Like I think I’m texting you plenty or whatever, but you also, you have some scars from the past of like a pretty

you know, like rough relationship and that was, it’s probably triggering if he’s getting mad at you about not texting enough, it’s like reminding you of your past. Well, I know, but this is like, and not just speaking on behalf of myself, but like, I’m saying like hypothetically. Yeah. Yeah. But then like in terms of like when guys tell girls like, you can’t wear that out. Like you can’t wear a short skirt out or whatever. I’ve dealt with men that I’ve dated before that have said things like that. And I just,

I don’t want to like say that me and Adam’s marriage is not perfect, but Adam has never once told me what I can and cannot wear. And if I’m dressed skimpy as can be, cause I’m having a girls night or like without a bra or whatever. He’s like, you are the prettiest person. He’s like, go have the best time. And he’s like, so proud of me. He’s just like, you look beautiful. Like, make sure you guys take pictures. Like he’s so proud of it. And I do.

I would think if you dated someone and they were like pointing out what you should wear, I do think that’s a red flag. I know some people might be like, it’s because they care about me or they’re protective. It’s like they’re not acting like you’re actually a grown ass adult that can make your own decisions. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I don’t know. Like I really be curious to hear from a guy’s perspective if it goes both ways, because I feel like I’ve been in relationships where people are telling me what to wear, what I should eat.

I’ve been in relationships where they tell me how they prefer my hair, how they, they have this, I think my physical presence is more related to their identity. Like they want me to look at a certain way for them to be with me and, or in like the communication factor. Like I’ve dated so many people and they’ve all said like, I don’t communicate enough. You’re just like not a text. I’m not a text. I’m not.

Ask anybody in my family. I do not respond. Ask my best friends. And also like, you know, location tracking. Katie’s not a location. I do not. I will not. I, with my significant other, I will always share my location because I’m like, God forbid something happens. I mean, we all know, like, I’m afraid of people getting abducted and stuff. Yeah. And I’m afraid of being controlled and abused by a man. So I do not share anything. So she doesn’t share her location, not even with me, unless she’s like going on a hike by herself.

But I think that you just need to find a partner that really like understands your reasoning behind these things. You know what I mean? Like, and doesn’t let their insecurities take over because an insecure man would say, you’re not sharing your location because you’re up to something. Right. But a confident man would say, yeah, that’s cool. That’s just your thing. Like, you know, you said you were going here. Cool. Like I trust that you’re there until like you’d prove otherwise. Like,

In that case, it’s like you probably shouldn’t be together anyway Yeah, so I think honestly if a man is telling you what to wear how much you need to text them or whatever that is totally their Their baggage from past things because that’s their insecurities I don’t think it has anything to do with you But it is your choice if you want to put up with her girl or not And honestly you can say like I’m not putting up with this I remember early on in my relationship with Adam there were certain things that I would say

Adam, I’m not putting up with this. So this either changes or like we’re done. Yeah. And I was really stickler about it. And honestly, I think it’s good to be because if there’s something that’s going to be always like, I don’t know, like, you know what I mean? Yeah, I’m in the position where I don’t think you should be having the same argument every few, over and over again. Yeah. Like it’s like, if it’s happening over and over again, then something has to change. Well, it almost feels like they don’t trust you or something. Do you know what I mean?

But like once the trust is gone, the relationship’s over. So I mean, if he’s asking these things already, it’s like, did you guys ever get there where you even trusted each other to begin with? You know what I mean? Yeah. So I think in a beginning of a relationship, it’s good to give it some time to learn like each other, right? Like to you can teach them to a degree in the beginning, but if it’s continuous and it never seems to evolve, it’s just like, A, you need to go to therapy clearly because you have trust issues.

But B, it’s like, this isn’t progressing. I feel like I’ve done the thing too, where I’ve dated a lot of people for their potential. And I’ll be like, they’re just such an amazing person. I can totally see them being like the one because of X, Y, and Z. But they’re not there yet. But I’ve also been in relationships where I feel like they’re dating me for my potential. And it’s like, one day she’ll text me more. Or one day she’ll want to be more engaged and whatever. And I’m like,

I try to be as honest from the beginning as possible. Like, this is who I am. I’m telling you, this is who I am. I know myself very well. And I don’t want you idealizing what I could be because I’m telling you this is who I am. So please figure out if this is really what you want. And I’d advise everybody to do that, that knows who they are. Because it’s just, it’s too much time to spend with somebody.

with the assumption that like they may change one day. yeah, I don’t think you should be with someone you think is gonna change one day. Right. Like you need to love them how they are, you know, as is. And that comes with even the like imperfections of like not texting enough. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that just, it comes with that. Yeah. All right, so what do you think? Do you think people can change or no? I think if somebody really wants to change, they can change. I agree. I think…

Like I said, I think it takes you to look in the mirror, say the ugly truth to yourself. Like say like, I have this, this and this that I’m doing. It’s toxic and terrible. Why do I do this? Get therapy, look into it, talk to family and friends about it. Like really work on yourself and try to move through it.

I don’t even know if you should talk to family and friends about it because I think there’s too many people that will contone your bad behavior within your circle. I guess it depends what it is. It depends what it is. Yeah, so I feel like just go to the hired professional and try to figure it out. True, true. But like really just look at yourself deeply and reflect about yourself. And I really do think that to a degree people don’t change. I do think that’s true to a degree, but I…

I also think that most people have potential to be kind and nice people. Obviously there’s people with disorders, you know what I mean? So there’s, you know, and that’s why I think you and I used to think no one can change because we’ve had people with mental disorders, you know, throughout our lives. And it just, that’s something that’s even harder to get jump over. Understand those things that they can’t change. Exactly. Yeah. And, but I think the people that have the capability to change,

I think can change if they want to. Yeah, I do. Yeah. I mean, addiction and disorders are a different ball game. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. there’s absolutely, and let’s just re -emphasize that so nobody misinterprets it. We understand that there are disorders in which behaviors will not change. Yeah. That there’s no changing them. It is what it is. But when we speak about changing, I think we’re talking about people that are.

capable of seeking help, trying to improve some of their choices, but not… And admitting their wrongdoings. Yeah. Because I think some people don’t admit the things they do wrong. I mean, same. To themselves. I’ve done that. Yeah. So it’s like, how can you change if you don’t admit this about yourself? Do you know what I mean? They don’t want to say it out loud. And I think that a lot of growing up is…

Admitting that everybody has shit that they need to work on Well, and it’s hard because sometimes I know for myself there are times where I’m not ready to change No, I know I don’t feel like I’m in the space to mentally go through the I know it’s gonna be work And I don’t feel like I’m ready to put in the work and it’s like my own Laziness to be like I’m not there yet. I’m not ready to do the work. But with the understanding I do

believe that one day I’ll be ready to do the work. Yeah, and that’s why they say like people with addiction and stuff, you can’t force them into a program like they need to choose when it’s time. Yeah. And I think that’s how any change is truly. Yeah. You know, it’s like, eventually you’re gonna like your partner can’t say like you need to do that. Exactly. It’s not gonna work out. We both agree you cannot change people, but people can change if they want to. Yeah. And infidelity, I’m saying I don’t think I could get over it.

But I think now I’m not I wouldn’t be able to yeah Yeah, even even with kids involved because now I just see like especially you going through a divorce I just see how healthy you guys are you and your partner your ex -partner are so my gosh, so yeah Now I just see how terribly toxic the relationship like how it could have been, you know raising your son and now what the reality is it’s so much better so I just

I don’t even think it’s fair to say stay with the kids if something’s so toxic. No, you don’t stay. Yeah, you don’t stay. Yeah, because that’s putting them in a worse situation. We so we don’t have a lot of time, but like my ex and I were incredibly toxic together. We had formed all of these toxic habits and behaviors that were repeated, repeated, repeated high highs, low lows and the lows were super, super low. So my, but seeing him since our split and he’s been a, he’s

been a stand up dad. Like when I say he has shown up, he has shown up and both have shown up exactly. And we are better parents to our child separated than we could have ever been together. We would have never gotten there together, but separate. He has had to grow. I’ve had to grow and it has been the best, most wonderful thing to see that I never.

could have imagined possible. And I’m just so happy my son has two happy parents and we can talk and be cordial and go to events together. And it’s, we couldn’t even do that when we were married. So like, this is – And also I think that you guys have gotten to a place where like, you are not completely healed, but healed enough where you don’t have hatred towards him anymore or resentment. He is somebody that I have.

I can honestly say I have forgiven. Yeah. And, and if you would have been married, you still would have hated. we would have hated each other. Yeah, exactly. So it’s like sometimes you need to like, you know, I don’t know. So I, I give people so much credit if they’ve worked through, through infantility. And I think that if you do go to work for it and like, you know, go to therapy, it’s a testament to how strong you are. But I do think me personally, I don’t know if I could get to a place of trust again.

I just don’t think I could. Because I’m pretty like… Yeah, it’s like one, yeah, one striker out with you. Yeah, I know. I’m like, I… And I’m not like that with everybody, but with like a partner that says that they love you and took a vow, I’d be like, there had to be a million things that had to happen before this got there. It’s a lot. I feel like it’s a lot different when once there’s a vow. I mean, I just honor that. That’s like, I cherish that. So like, that’s…

I understand it being like a one strike, your girl type of thing. Yeah. Well, we’ve talked for like 40 minutes. I’m sorry, guys. This wasn’t a super fun episode or like peppy episode, but I know I do hope that it’s something that somebody out there needed to hear today. And I believe in that. I believe that certain episodes happen because somebody needs to hear it. And we’ve been getting just amazing feedback about every episode. I can’t wait to share with you guys on Friday feedback.

But yeah, I’m sorry this wasn’t like a peppy episode, but I do think that it was an important conversation to have. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well we love you guys. We will see you next week. All right. On Twin Study After Dark. Bye. Bye.